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foreign

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[Music]

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foreign

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[Music]

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host and we have a great show for you

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this evening David Clark in England on

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the Calvin photo or Calvin photo I've

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heard it pronounced both ways

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it's a pre-recorded show I had to record

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with him because it's very late at night

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for him right now so he was willing to

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pre-record which I did

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um some days ago and I will be in the

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chat room so I will be uh I will be

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participating in the chat room during

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this show and so uh I'm excited about

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having him but also tonight if you want

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to stay up late or early whatever you

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want to call it there is the Artemis one

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launch and that is at uh well the launch

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window starts at 104 a.m Eastern so uh

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pretty exciting going to the moon it's

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going to orbit Maybe maybe six days or

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something like that and then in a couple

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years Artemis two we'll have astronauts

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they're going to do the same and then

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Artemis three I don't know exactly when

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that's going to be but it's actually

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going to be a landing on the moon which

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of course never happened right I'm just

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kidding it's a joke everyone it's a joke

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I really do believe the landing did

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happen indeed on the moon and we are

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going back to look at the footprints

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just to make sure I think that's what

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we're doing but it should be uh I mean I

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love this stuff I'm really glad that

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we're uh it just seems unreal that it

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was uh all the way back 1969 in the

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early 70s where we were landing and

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walking on the moon and we have not been

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back so glad we're going back again and

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I am just about ready to start the show

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with uh David Clark and again I will be

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in the chat room and participating

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and make sure there's no funny business

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either all right here we go

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all right welcome back David

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thanks for inviting me back uh pretty

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exciting to talk about the uh Calvin

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Calvin uh photo and how you uncovered it

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and everything but for the first time a

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person that's heard you for the first

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time uh why don't you quickly if you

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would give your background and what gets

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you interested in exploring and I know

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you're you're a healthy skeptic is what

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I would say uh but exploring this topic

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what made you interested in looking at

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it well I've been I've been interested

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in in the subject since I was a child

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that's the mid-1970s reading all the

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sorts of you know the paperback books

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like the high neck youth report

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um and um I went in I trained as a

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journalist went into journalism and

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during the 1990s during the sort of

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um 50th anniversary of of Roswell

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newspapers were full of um stories about

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UFOs and I began writing about it again

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at that at that stage

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um and I've started using Freedom of

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Information requests um to obtain um

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information from the UK government

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because that around that time the late

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1990s you were able for the first time

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um to to obtain material that had never

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been available before

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um that had been um accumulated in the

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archives

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um RAF mod Etc et cetera so I started

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writing stories for the for the media

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about the subject then

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um and because I was doing so much

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research

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um visiting the national archives in

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London

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um in 2005 when the ministry of Defense

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took the um decision to release their

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entire archive they asked me to act as

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like the the curator a spokesperson for

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this massive sort of open government

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project which saw something like 160

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files thousands of pages of information

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released or much of it redacted to all

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the personal information taken out and

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that's when I first saw

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um a very poor sort of

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um scaled down

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um version of this Calvin photograph

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here you go yeah this is what was

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released in 2009

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um and and that we do we still don't

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know whether that's um whether that's a

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drawing based upon the original images

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or um it's described as a view foil and

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that's all there was in the files um

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that were released in 2009 so it really

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sort of intrigued me at the time and I

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thought this you know there's something

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more going on with this Photograph and I

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made quite a few inquiries there and

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then I I spoke to the date the Scottish

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Daily Record which was the the newspaper

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in Glasgow that had been sent these

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negatives back in 1990 and no one there

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seemed to remember anything about it it

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was like yeah we've heard the same story

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that you've heard but no one here

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remembers it

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so I did as much digging as I could then

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um

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but didn't get anywhere

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um and it stuck with me ever since

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another 13 years

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well when this was out there I remember

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seeing this

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floating around and hearing about it and

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um that it was you know uh not a mem I

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thought it was like a mimeograph or

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whatever you want to call some type of

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yeah bad copy of a photograph and I

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remember there was you know questions

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about is this a real thing or or you

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know I mean you can see the scale of the

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object now we don't know how far away

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the either one of them are as far as if

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one's under the other or one's not far

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off in the distance but if they are the

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same basic distance and you see the

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scale this thing is huge whatever it is

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yeah yeah yeah and and of course on that

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version of it you don't see any of the

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the landscape or the um the framing you

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know the the fence and the trees that

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you see on the um the actual original

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one of the original prints this is the

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this is the one that um that was

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released in August

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um this year but uh this this is an

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original print taken from the original

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negatives

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that's been kept by um this guy called

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Craig Lindsay who was the RAF press

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officer of Scotland at the time

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now was this uh is this the only picture

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I mean you would think that there would

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be several pictures taken of an object

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like that if the if the photographer had

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time yes there was apparently there was

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originally six

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um images color images this is what is

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is mentioned in the uh the the the memo

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that was produced by Owen rtop for the

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ministry of Defense at the time it's in

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1990 the the photographers

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um sent these negatives to the Scottish

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Daily Record and the Daily Record

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contacted the RAF

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for a comment which is how Craig Lindsay

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became involved in the first place so

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um

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there's some correspondence in the files

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which suggests that the ministry of

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Defense expected The Daily Record to

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publish the story was this is this

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related to that yeah this this is this

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is one of the um one of the documents

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that was that was released at the

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national archives in 2009 at the same

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time as the um the the photocopied image

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that you showed originally

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uh and that basically is a briefing by

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the UFO desk officer

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um for

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um the defense minister and the

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departmental Press office basically

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saying the daily record of got these

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images they've got six color images of

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showing this UFO being Shattered by what

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appears to be a Harrier jet we and and

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they're expecting the newspaper to

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publish the story imminently and then

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the interesting thing this is what this

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is what I found as a journalist

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intriguing the file there's no further

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mention of it after that point September

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1990 that it just ends there and there's

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a few intriguing documents from a

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defense intelligence file

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um from the following year where they're

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asking um for a second

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um re-tasking of the analysis that was

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done on the photographs that um by that

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point they'd return the negatives to the

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newspaper and all they had were these

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review files which are like um overhead

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projections that's why I understand a

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view file to be oh I see now uh so how

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did you come come upon the

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um was it actually the photographer that

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you were able to connect with

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no we've never found the photographer

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the the identity of the photographer

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remains a mystery

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um what's happened what happened was is

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I made some inquiries at the time back

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in 2009 as far as I could do

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um with with the the current journalists

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and and photographers on The Daily

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Record none of whom said that they could

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remember anything about this

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um story and that's because they never

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ran the story in the first place and

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again this is a mystery why did they not

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run it and I mean I mean there's so much

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to cover here Martin it's a difficult

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nowhere to start

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um was it anything to do with the mod

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like well

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in the UK we have this thing called the

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D.A notice or D note is committee and

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what that is is

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um

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it's the thing that's run by the

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ministry of defense and they have um

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it's like a they have members of the

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press representing the the print media

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and the broadcast media who sit on this

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committee with

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um people from the secret Services

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people from the RAF from the ministry of

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defense and it's if you're working as a

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journalist and you're working on a story

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that has potential National Security

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implications you can but you don't have

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to if you're worried about

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um I don't know revealing the name of us

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of a um an agent who works abroad or

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revealing something about nuclear

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weapons or something like that

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um and you think in a publishing a story

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that touches on one of those subjects

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you can ring the denotes committee and

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you can take advice from the government

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is is this something that I should

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publish now most journalists would not

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go anywhere near the D note is committed

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you you would you you wouldn't go there

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but it exists and it's something that's

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that was created in the second world war

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dick or cold war

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um that still functions now the

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interesting thing is this is what we've

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been able to discover quite recently is

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that the editor of the Daily Record at

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that time in 1990 a guy called endall

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Laird was actually one of the press

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Representatives on the denotes committee

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at the time this Photograph was taken

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and the interesting thing if you if you

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look at this in context the photograph

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was taken on the 4th of August 1990. now

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two days before that Saddam Hussein's

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forces had entered Kuwait and there was

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a massive um military operation going on

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um there were military tree aircraft

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00:12:09,290 --> 00:12:06,300
aircraft carriers heading for the um for

279
00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:09,300
the Middle East and I can't help but

280
00:12:14,569 --> 00:12:10,740
think that there's some connection

281
00:12:16,490 --> 00:12:14,579
between this um this Photograph and this

282
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:16,500
event and

283
00:12:19,810 --> 00:12:18,480
um what eventually became the first Gulf

284
00:12:22,370 --> 00:12:19,820
War

285
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:22,380
I'm sure any of the news would be

286
00:12:28,009 --> 00:12:24,480
overshadowed with what was going on with

287
00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:28,019
the war yeah you know and I wonder if

288
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,600
that's perhaps why this story didn't get

289
00:12:35,449 --> 00:12:33,360
printed well I'm certain of it you know

290
00:12:37,850 --> 00:12:35,459
I I don't think there's any doubt that

291
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:37,860
there was some kind of intervention by

292
00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:39,600
the ministry of defense that that

293
00:12:43,970 --> 00:12:42,300
persuaded the newspaper not to publish

294
00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:43,980
the photograph because the thing about

295
00:12:47,449 --> 00:12:45,660
the photograph is I mean there's a lot

296
00:12:49,129 --> 00:12:47,459
of controversy about whether it's

297
00:12:50,990 --> 00:12:49,139
genuine or not

298
00:12:53,870 --> 00:12:51,000
um but to me that misses the point that

299
00:12:55,790 --> 00:12:53,880
even if the photograph is fake or even

300
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:55,800
if the six images these Six Original

301
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:58,079
images were all faked

302
00:13:03,650 --> 00:13:00,480
um most newspapers would still run the

303
00:13:06,170 --> 00:13:03,660
story it would still be a story it's

304
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:06,180
still newsworthy I mean whatever you

305
00:13:10,850 --> 00:13:08,160
think of the image that is a striking

306
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,860
image I was working on I was working on

307
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,959
a newspaper at the time

308
00:13:16,370 --> 00:13:14,639
um the chat the the Sheffield star

309
00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:16,380
Yorkshire evening Perth which was like

310
00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:18,420
the sister paper to the Daily Record if

311
00:13:23,569 --> 00:13:20,760
somebody had turned up our office with a

312
00:13:26,030 --> 00:13:23,579
set of photographs like that even if it

313
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:26,040
even if eventually someone had said well

314
00:13:29,930 --> 00:13:28,560
you know this has gone to the um Experts

315
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:29,940
of the royal Air Force and they've

316
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:31,680
they've worked out these it's this

317
00:13:37,310 --> 00:13:34,800
clever feed it it would you would still

318
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:37,320
run the story and and the News editor of

319
00:13:40,430 --> 00:13:38,639
the Daily Record

320
00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:40,440
um Malcolm speed who I've spoken to

321
00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:42,660
quite recently I was I did an interview

322
00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:45,480
with him on my blog he says the same he

323
00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:47,220
can't understand it he remembers being

324
00:13:53,329 --> 00:13:49,200
shown the photograph just before he went

325
00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:53,339
on annual leave in August 1990

326
00:13:57,650 --> 00:13:55,260
um this is the time when most people in

327
00:13:58,910 --> 00:13:57,660
the UK um will book holidays to go you

328
00:14:02,090 --> 00:13:58,920
know it's this it's the sort of holiday

329
00:14:03,949 --> 00:14:02,100
season so he went off just as this uh

330
00:14:05,569 --> 00:14:03,959
photograph arrived at the newspaper he

331
00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:05,579
came back expecting it to be splashed

332
00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:07,740
across the front page

333
00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:09,600
um and the newspaper had not run the

334
00:14:14,269 --> 00:14:12,300
story and it and he was basically uh he

335
00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:14,279
asked he asked the um the photo editor

336
00:14:18,170 --> 00:14:15,660
why haven't you run the story and the

337
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:18,180
guy said oh well I sent it to the RAF as

338
00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:20,399
we know he did and they told us it was a

339
00:14:26,449 --> 00:14:23,100
fake so we haven't run it but even to

340
00:14:29,050 --> 00:14:26,459
this day he cannot understand why there

341
00:14:31,610 --> 00:14:29,060
was no Story I mean surely

342
00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:31,620
the fact that these photographs have

343
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,180
been taken in the Scottish islands

344
00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:35,760
showing this huge object being shadowed

345
00:14:39,470 --> 00:14:37,920
by an RAF jet

346
00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:39,480
um these two guys have come forward with

347
00:14:42,889 --> 00:14:41,459
this incredible story

348
00:14:44,689 --> 00:14:42,899
um they'd been sent the photographs

349
00:14:47,629 --> 00:14:44,699
they'd sent them to the RAF and even if

350
00:14:50,810 --> 00:14:47,639
the RAF had come back and said that they

351
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:50,820
were faked that is a story

352
00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:53,519
whichever way you slice it yeah so why

353
00:14:57,769 --> 00:14:55,500
did they not run the story and I I and

354
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:57,779
this is the answer this this is the

355
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,199
question that I Still Remains unanswered

356
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:03,120
wow this is why I'm interested in the

357
00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:05,100
story I'd to be honest what it actually

358
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:06,540
shows is

359
00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:08,399
neither inner there to me I'm just

360
00:15:13,009 --> 00:15:10,500
interested in it as a um as an

361
00:15:17,389 --> 00:15:13,019
interesting sort of um journalistic

362
00:15:20,210 --> 00:15:17,399
mystery right yeah it does it is very uh

363
00:15:22,730 --> 00:15:20,220
mysterious and just to let the audio uh

364
00:15:24,290 --> 00:15:22,740
listener know these images will be in

365
00:15:27,410 --> 00:15:24,300
our show notes so you can take a look at

366
00:15:31,310 --> 00:15:27,420
them at any given time so

367
00:15:34,189 --> 00:15:31,320
why don't we walk through your uh search

368
00:15:36,889 --> 00:15:34,199
and how things went stumbling blocks or

369
00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:36,899
whatever you had to deal with on how you

370
00:15:41,569 --> 00:15:39,480
actually were able to obtain this

371
00:15:44,750 --> 00:15:41,579
Photograph well first of all I should

372
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:44,760
say that um although I've done most of

373
00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:45,959
the running with this there's been like

374
00:15:50,329 --> 00:15:47,940
a small team of people that have that

375
00:15:52,930 --> 00:15:50,339
have been helping I mean most recently

376
00:15:55,850 --> 00:15:52,940
the the guys that um

377
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:55,860
UK UAP media because I've recently

378
00:16:00,769 --> 00:15:58,320
joined up with them to work on this

379
00:16:06,290 --> 00:16:00,779
investigation and that there's also been

380
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:08,629
um there's been several people who who

381
00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:11,040
become um interested in this including

382
00:16:15,949 --> 00:16:13,920
Matthew Ilsley who's um is a really

383
00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:15,959
skilled investigator he's not a

384
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:18,060
journalist but he's certainly done a lot

385
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:19,440
of digging around in the background and

386
00:16:23,930 --> 00:16:22,320
he's been helping me with this and also

387
00:16:27,470 --> 00:16:23,940
there's a there's a guy called Gile

388
00:16:30,350 --> 00:16:27,480
Stevens who actually lives very close to

389
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:30,360
where the photograph was taken up in the

390
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:32,399
Scottish islands at a place called

391
00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:36,480
Calvin which is on a the A9 Road and he

392
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:38,940
uh during the covid lockdown he

393
00:16:43,730 --> 00:16:41,759
basically he sort of warped the entire

394
00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:43,740
landscape he knew every inch of the

395
00:16:47,150 --> 00:16:45,420
landscape so when we actually obtained

396
00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:47,160
the of the the print

397
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:51,180
he he he was able to sort of say because

398
00:16:54,110 --> 00:16:52,320
of the the

399
00:16:57,410 --> 00:16:54,120
um the way that the the Scottish

400
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,420
Highlands is farmed and and run there's

401
00:17:01,610 --> 00:16:59,759
very few places in that immediate area

402
00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:01,620
where there could have been a fence like

403
00:17:05,929 --> 00:17:03,839
the ones shown in the photograph so we

404
00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:05,939
pretty much narrowed it down to where we

405
00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:08,100
think this picture was taken which is

406
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:09,000
about

407
00:17:12,409 --> 00:17:10,079
um

408
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:12,419
13 miles north of a town called

409
00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:16,319
pitlochry which is like a tourist town

410
00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:18,660
um it's it's very sort of um this

411
00:17:22,669 --> 00:17:20,760
markets itself as the gateway to the

412
00:17:26,929 --> 00:17:22,679
Scottish islands

413
00:17:29,450 --> 00:17:26,939
wow um I saw an image

414
00:17:31,909 --> 00:17:29,460
uh on Twitter

415
00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:31,919
of so that someone took that they

416
00:17:37,370 --> 00:17:34,559
thought was the same setting is that is

417
00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:37,380
this what we're talking about

418
00:17:40,610 --> 00:17:38,460
um

419
00:17:43,310 --> 00:17:40,620
I'm not entirely sure because there's

420
00:17:46,850 --> 00:17:43,320
been a lot of um posts on social media

421
00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:46,860
and and since we since we've since we've

422
00:17:50,990 --> 00:17:48,780
said where we think the photograph was

423
00:17:53,150 --> 00:17:51,000
taken people have been out there

424
00:17:55,490 --> 00:17:53,160
um and they've and you know they've

425
00:17:56,990 --> 00:17:55,500
they've taken Lots people have taken

426
00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:57,000
lots of photographs and leaves have been

427
00:18:02,029 --> 00:17:59,280
on social media in fact there's been so

428
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:02,039
much on social media about this I I I've

429
00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:04,320
just had to step back from it so

430
00:18:08,750 --> 00:18:07,020
all I know is what I can talk about

431
00:18:10,370 --> 00:18:08,760
which is what resulted in my

432
00:18:12,289 --> 00:18:10,380
investigation not what other people have

433
00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:12,299
done since well I remember the first

434
00:18:18,169 --> 00:18:14,580
name of the guy because he bought a

435
00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:18,179
painting for me as Steph and that he he

436
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:21,780
uh had these things your this image

437
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:25,080
posted along with the image of the

438
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:28,140
landscape but you could see uh there

439
00:18:33,529 --> 00:18:31,200
were like mountains or Hills yeah with

440
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:33,539
the fence lined up and the I don't know

441
00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:36,000
if the tree did but 1990 would be a big

442
00:18:42,529 --> 00:18:38,340
change in the tree by now

443
00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:42,539
so uh but but anyway I'm it's great that

444
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:44,280
all these people are interested in

445
00:18:49,669 --> 00:18:47,760
trying to figure this out yeah now have

446
00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:49,679
you only you know that you said that you

447
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:51,720
know that there were six images is this

448
00:18:57,230 --> 00:18:53,820
the only image that you have been able

449
00:18:59,870 --> 00:18:57,240
to uncover yes yes because the what what

450
00:19:01,909 --> 00:18:59,880
became of the the other five is remains

451
00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:01,919
a mystery because the um the ministry of

452
00:19:06,890 --> 00:19:03,840
Defense

453
00:19:09,230 --> 00:19:06,900
um say that they return them to the

454
00:19:13,130 --> 00:19:09,240
newspaper but the newspapers say they

455
00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:13,140
they were never returned to them so they

456
00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:14,940
who knows what's happened to The

457
00:19:17,870 --> 00:19:16,380
Originals there may have been returned

458
00:19:19,070 --> 00:19:17,880
to the photographers but because we

459
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,080
don't know

460
00:19:24,350 --> 00:19:21,360
um the identity of the photographers

461
00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:24,360
the whole thing is just so mysterious

462
00:19:29,570 --> 00:19:27,480
yeah and so

463
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:29,580
um did you walk all the way through like

464
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:32,820
uncovering this did you already go

465
00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:34,080
through all that how you were able to

466
00:19:40,909 --> 00:19:37,020
actually get to this photograph

467
00:19:43,070 --> 00:19:40,919
yeah I mean I said the back in 2009

468
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:43,080
um the very poor photocopied version of

469
00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:46,320
of this was was released as part of this

470
00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:47,039
um

471
00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:49,740
material that that the ministry of

472
00:19:53,210 --> 00:19:51,480
Defense put out there under Freedom of

473
00:19:55,789 --> 00:19:53,220
Information this was part of the project

474
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:55,799
with the National Archives and

475
00:19:59,690 --> 00:19:58,799
apart from the image you've seen and a

476
00:20:01,010 --> 00:19:59,700
few

477
00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:01,020
um

478
00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:04,740
that time which didn't really tell us

479
00:20:10,730 --> 00:20:07,860
much other than the fact that um

480
00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:10,740
two guys who were out walking Hill

481
00:20:14,029 --> 00:20:12,240
walking

482
00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:14,039
um had seen this what they described as

483
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:16,140
a large stationary diamond shaped object

484
00:20:21,549 --> 00:20:19,440
with this jet aircraft flying past it

485
00:20:23,870 --> 00:20:21,559
um that they'd taken a number of

486
00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:23,880
photographs that passed the negatives to

487
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:26,100
the Scottish Daily Record The Daily

488
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:27,840
Record had sent them to the Royal Air

489
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,280
Force who'd sent them to the ministry of

490
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:31,440
Defense Minister of Defense had got

491
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,080
their experts to examine the negatives

492
00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:35,760
and they hadn't been able to identify

493
00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:39,960
what the diamond shaped object was

494
00:20:45,169 --> 00:20:41,580
um but they had they were pretty sure

495
00:20:47,810 --> 00:20:45,179
that that the um the aircraft was a

496
00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:47,820
Harrier the the object the the aircraft

497
00:20:52,250 --> 00:20:49,980
to the to the side of the of the UFO

498
00:20:53,810 --> 00:20:52,260
that you can see there

499
00:20:55,730 --> 00:20:53,820
um and the and apparently on one of the

500
00:20:58,610 --> 00:20:55,740
other Stills there is also a second

501
00:21:00,830 --> 00:20:58,620
military aircraft also believed to be a

502
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:00,840
Harrier but obviously we don't have that

503
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:02,640
um image so we can't I can't show you

504
00:21:04,610 --> 00:21:03,840
that

505
00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:04,620
um

506
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:10,260
ascertain at the time in in 2009 so the

507
00:21:16,610 --> 00:21:13,440
the story since then has just kept

508
00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:16,620
reappearing people have speculated about

509
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:19,320
what could possibly be the explanation

510
00:21:23,930 --> 00:21:21,600
where of the photographs gone to and

511
00:21:25,730 --> 00:21:23,940
Nick poop has done a lot of

512
00:21:28,250 --> 00:21:25,740
um publicity about this it's one of his

513
00:21:30,350 --> 00:21:28,260
favorite cases he mentions it in his um

514
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:30,360
in his original book opens guys closed

515
00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:32,880
minds and there's been a number of

516
00:21:37,549 --> 00:21:35,220
stories in some of the Tabloid

517
00:21:39,890 --> 00:21:37,559
newspapers about it ever since

518
00:21:42,409 --> 00:21:39,900
um and Nick worked with an artist to

519
00:21:43,789 --> 00:21:42,419
produce like an artist's impression of

520
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:43,799
this Photograph because I should explain

521
00:21:48,110 --> 00:21:46,080
that here you can see it and a lot of

522
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:48,120
people who have seen that artist's

523
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:51,600
impression think that that is the one of

524
00:21:56,510 --> 00:21:53,280
the original photographs when it isn't

525
00:21:58,610 --> 00:21:56,520
yeah it's it's been it's been conjured

526
00:22:02,029 --> 00:21:58,620
up on a on a computer

527
00:22:04,730 --> 00:22:02,039
now what I should explain is is that

528
00:22:06,830 --> 00:22:04,740
when Nick poop um took on the role of

529
00:22:09,049 --> 00:22:06,840
UFO desk officer at the ministry of

530
00:22:13,090 --> 00:22:09,059
Defense in London in July I think it was

531
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:13,100
June or July 1990. that was a year after

532
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:15,600
these images had been sent to the

533
00:22:19,370 --> 00:22:17,039
ministry of Defense so he didn't

534
00:22:22,730 --> 00:22:19,380
actually deal with the case it was his

535
00:22:24,649 --> 00:22:22,740
predecessor a guy called Owen hartel but

536
00:22:27,049 --> 00:22:24,659
when he turned when he arrived when he

537
00:22:29,149 --> 00:22:27,059
had the in this o and R Top is the

538
00:22:30,289 --> 00:22:29,159
author of this memo that that is the

539
00:22:31,970 --> 00:22:30,299
briefing

540
00:22:34,669 --> 00:22:31,980
um for the minister of defense on the

541
00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:34,679
photographs so um

542
00:22:40,430 --> 00:22:37,140
in Nick's Nick's book he says that when

543
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:40,440
he when he got the job in the office the

544
00:22:46,370 --> 00:22:42,720
Secretary of air Staff office on the

545
00:22:48,890 --> 00:22:46,380
wall was a huge poster-sized version of

546
00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:48,900
the Chaldean photograph and and people

547
00:22:53,630 --> 00:22:50,460
used to come in and say what the hell is

548
00:22:54,950 --> 00:22:53,640
that and it was a talking point in the

549
00:22:57,230 --> 00:22:54,960
office

550
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:57,240
um also presumably he what he got what

551
00:23:01,610 --> 00:22:59,039
he knew about it was from talking to his

552
00:23:03,529 --> 00:23:01,620
predecessor Owen hartop and he said that

553
00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:03,539
this this post was on the wall for a

554
00:23:09,770 --> 00:23:05,880
while it was really stunning and and

555
00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:09,780
impressive and at some stage his boss

556
00:23:12,649 --> 00:23:10,500
um

557
00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:12,659
the head of the section came in and

558
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:14,820
removed it because he was concerned that

559
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,799
that it was something top secret that

560
00:23:21,169 --> 00:23:18,960
was shown on the photograph and at the

561
00:23:23,090 --> 00:23:21,179
time there was a lot of press

562
00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:23,100
speculation about this so-called

563
00:23:27,890 --> 00:23:25,740
Hypersonic experimental aircraft that

564
00:23:32,090 --> 00:23:27,900
was called Aurora which was supposed to

565
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:32,100
be the successor for the SR-71 Blackbird

566
00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:32,960
um

567
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:34,740
interestingly

568
00:23:40,730 --> 00:23:37,440
um this is a page from the um defense

569
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:40,740
intelligence staff report on uaps that

570
00:23:46,330 --> 00:23:42,720
um I tracked down and got I got this

571
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:46,340
document huge document for volume

572
00:23:52,669 --> 00:23:49,500
465 pages that was produced in the late

573
00:23:55,010 --> 00:23:52,679
1990s a lot of it a lot of it has been

574
00:23:55,970 --> 00:23:55,020
redacted this is a the photo the image

575
00:23:59,570 --> 00:23:55,980
of just

576
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:59,580
shown there as you can see you've got a

577
00:24:03,770 --> 00:24:01,200
picture this is a section on Black

578
00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:03,780
Project aircraft experimental aircraft

579
00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:07,080
that have been seen and reported as uaps

580
00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:11,039
and interestingly you've got the SR-71

581
00:24:16,850 --> 00:24:13,380
NASA photograph and then you've got two

582
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:16,860
other images that have been removed that

583
00:24:21,409 --> 00:24:19,440
apparently are top secret experimental

584
00:24:24,169 --> 00:24:21,419
aircraft

585
00:24:26,930 --> 00:24:24,179
um and United States United States

586
00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:26,940
programs removed under Section 27 of the

587
00:24:32,149 --> 00:24:28,620
Freedom of Information Act because they

588
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,159
are um that that's what that's a an

589
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:34,080
exemption to foi that relates to

590
00:24:39,950 --> 00:24:36,480
international relations I.E with a

591
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:39,960
foreign country the USA so that section

592
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:43,440
um of the report relates talks about

593
00:24:48,409 --> 00:24:45,960
the fact that some of these experimental

594
00:24:50,450 --> 00:24:48,419
aircraft and there are two programs it

595
00:24:51,049 --> 00:24:50,460
mentioned specifically

596
00:24:53,149 --> 00:24:51,059
um

597
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:53,159
these are experimental prototype

598
00:25:00,529 --> 00:24:57,600
aircraft stealth aircraft of some kind

599
00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:00,539
um that even now

600
00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:02,760
um 30 years later we're not allowed to

601
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:05,820
see what these aircraft look like so my

602
00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:07,919
information and this may well be

603
00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:10,380
information that's false

604
00:25:13,789 --> 00:25:11,760
um is that

605
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:13,799
um what was seen in photograph was some

606
00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:17,039
kind of experimental um aircraft and and

607
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:19,140
I mean I know that the reaction to this

608
00:25:23,149 --> 00:25:20,880
online has been like almost sort of

609
00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:23,159
incredulous this can't possibly be true

610
00:25:26,810 --> 00:25:25,320
you know there aren't any aircraft that

611
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:26,820
we don't know about that are flying

612
00:25:32,690 --> 00:25:30,000
around and I just think oh how can

613
00:25:34,669 --> 00:25:32,700
anyone possibly say that yeah and the

614
00:25:36,890 --> 00:25:34,679
fact that yeah it's 30 years ago and we

615
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:36,900
should have seen it by now well maybe we

616
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:39,179
have seen it but in some other form who

617
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:41,220
knows yeah you know and there are many

618
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:43,440
other explanations for what that object

619
00:25:47,930 --> 00:25:45,120
could be

620
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:47,940
um if it's not a fake I mean there are

621
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:50,880
things like blimps uh but strangely

622
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:52,559
shaped balloons that are used by the

623
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:54,720
military for as rate as as floating

624
00:26:00,590 --> 00:25:57,840
radar platforms there are

625
00:26:02,930 --> 00:26:00,600
um unmanned aircraft you know what we

626
00:26:04,669 --> 00:26:02,940
now call drones how do we know it was

627
00:26:06,350 --> 00:26:04,679
not some kind of experimental aircraft

628
00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:06,360
of that kind you know so there are many

629
00:26:09,710 --> 00:26:08,100
many possibilities for what this thing

630
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:09,720
could have been

631
00:26:15,289 --> 00:26:12,720
and without knowing the distances of

632
00:26:17,690 --> 00:26:15,299
either craft I mean the only way you can

633
00:26:20,149 --> 00:26:17,700
sort of Judge It Is by what is in focus

634
00:26:22,370 --> 00:26:20,159
and what is blurry yeah and the and when

635
00:26:25,390 --> 00:26:22,380
you're looking at this it looks like the

636
00:26:29,090 --> 00:26:25,400
uh Harriet uh whatever you the aircraft

637
00:26:31,669 --> 00:26:29,100
is uh what's it called a Harrier how are

638
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:31,679
you yeah yeah yeah uh seems a little

639
00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:34,080
okay Landing aircraft that was using the

640
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:37,020
Falklands were I I see you can see

641
00:26:43,310 --> 00:26:40,080
that's a little bit blurry compared to

642
00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:43,320
the image of the craft almost as if

643
00:26:50,450 --> 00:26:46,740
that's further into the background

644
00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:50,460
um but I'm not necessarily and the shape

645
00:26:56,330 --> 00:26:53,460
is very odd uh I could see where it

646
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:56,340
could be some type of blimp but if it

647
00:27:02,090 --> 00:26:59,520
was something that was propelled it it's

648
00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:02,100
very difficult to see uh you know if

649
00:27:05,330 --> 00:27:03,240
there's

650
00:27:07,789 --> 00:27:05,340
I mean you could possibly see a wing on

651
00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:07,799
the side but it's but the propulsion

652
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:11,360
part of it is is uh unusual or or

653
00:27:16,490 --> 00:27:14,100
mysterious looking because you really

654
00:27:19,010 --> 00:27:16,500
don't see any type of propulsion any any

655
00:27:23,090 --> 00:27:19,020
jet or anything like that

656
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:23,100
yeah well I I I am not a photo analyst I

657
00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:25,440
have no expertise whatsoever in

658
00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:27,240
determining whether that is a fake

659
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:29,159
photograph or not I've left that to my

660
00:27:33,409 --> 00:27:30,960
colleague Andrew Robinson who's a

661
00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:33,419
photography lecturer at Sheffield Hallam

662
00:27:37,310 --> 00:27:35,279
University where I work I mean but

663
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:37,320
perhaps I should what what I need to do

664
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,600
is explain how we came

665
00:27:43,669 --> 00:27:41,520
uh to be in possession of that

666
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:43,679
photograph and how we um how we track

667
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:47,039
down the furniture itself because yeah

668
00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:49,919
um nothing really happened after 2009

669
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:52,020
when we first became aware that that

670
00:27:56,390 --> 00:27:54,000
these photographs existed and as I say

671
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:56,400
the inquiries are made by then didn't

672
00:28:01,549 --> 00:27:59,039
didn't come to anything we didn't find

673
00:28:04,430 --> 00:28:01,559
anything out anything more about the

674
00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:04,440
story but it's one it's a story that's

675
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:07,740
always intrigued me so over the 13 years

676
00:28:13,370 --> 00:28:10,799
between 2009 and then I've thought I've

677
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,380
kept my eye on developments and I've

678
00:28:16,549 --> 00:28:15,360
worked with it with this small group of

679
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:16,559
sort of

680
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:19,020
um investigative reporters

681
00:28:24,529 --> 00:28:21,120
trying to sort of get to the bottom of

682
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,539
this story and everything we tried to do

683
00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:26,640
we came up against brick walls in the

684
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:29,700
the we asked for the the name of the

685
00:28:32,990 --> 00:28:31,200
photographer which is in one of the

686
00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:33,000
documents but has been removed is

687
00:28:37,970 --> 00:28:35,220
blocking covering it that's to be

688
00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:37,980
redacted yeah and we have this um we

689
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:40,500
have this system in the UK now called um

690
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:43,440
gdpr where personal information I.E

691
00:28:48,409 --> 00:28:45,840
people's names and addresses is being

692
00:28:51,049 --> 00:28:48,419
withheld for up to a hundred years and

693
00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:51,059
they've applied it to all the files on

694
00:28:56,870 --> 00:28:53,700
UFOs that have been released since 2005.

695
00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:56,880
wow so there's absolutely no way that

696
00:29:02,090 --> 00:28:58,799
our our government is going to tell us

697
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,100
who the photographer is until I think

698
00:29:06,049 --> 00:29:04,320
it's something like 2076 when that

699
00:29:08,570 --> 00:29:06,059
person will be dead and we will all be

700
00:29:12,590 --> 00:29:08,580
dead as well so that's right absolute

701
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:12,600
Madness so so in one of the documents

702
00:29:16,970 --> 00:29:15,120
it gives the name of the photographer

703
00:29:19,549 --> 00:29:16,980
which has been removed and then there's

704
00:29:21,889 --> 00:29:19,559
the name of the person who um the

705
00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:21,899
photographs the name of the the Royal

706
00:29:26,510 --> 00:29:23,640
Air Force

707
00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:26,520
um press officer to whom the photographs

708
00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:28,440
were sent by the Scottish Daily Record

709
00:29:32,930 --> 00:29:30,360
now

710
00:29:34,669 --> 00:29:32,940
even though that person works in the

711
00:29:37,130 --> 00:29:34,679
Civil Service and is therefore a public

712
00:29:39,529 --> 00:29:37,140
servant and you would think that their

713
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:39,539
names should be in the public domain the

714
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:41,700
ministry of Defense still will not

715
00:29:47,210 --> 00:29:44,820
release that name but there is nothing

716
00:29:50,930 --> 00:29:47,220
to stop someone as I did from Simply

717
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:50,940
checking who was the the the Press

718
00:29:55,370 --> 00:29:52,559
officer for the Royal Air Force in

719
00:29:58,250 --> 00:29:55,380
Scotland in 1990 because that person is

720
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:58,260
a public facing civil servant who speaks

721
00:30:02,510 --> 00:30:00,480
to the media or would have spoken to the

722
00:30:05,090 --> 00:30:02,520
media every single day because that's

723
00:30:07,850 --> 00:30:05,100
that's what that person's job was so

724
00:30:09,649 --> 00:30:07,860
very quickly just from doing a Google

725
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:09,659
search basically I found that that

726
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:11,520
person was someone called Craig Lindsay

727
00:30:17,810 --> 00:30:14,399
now it's not difficult then to track

728
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:17,820
down that person you know it's basic

729
00:30:22,730 --> 00:30:19,679
what you do as a journalist every single

730
00:30:25,370 --> 00:30:22,740
day of the week so very quickly once I'd

731
00:30:28,010 --> 00:30:25,380
worked out who who the Press officer was

732
00:30:30,289 --> 00:30:28,020
I I phoned him up and I distinguish him

733
00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:30,299
the the conversation I had with Craig

734
00:30:35,149 --> 00:30:32,700
the very first conversation still sticks

735
00:30:37,010 --> 00:30:35,159
in my mind because I got talking to him

736
00:30:39,049 --> 00:30:37,020
and said I was a journalist working on

737
00:30:41,269 --> 00:30:39,059
on a story that I think he might know

738
00:30:42,409 --> 00:30:41,279
something about and he said and well I

739
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:42,419
think I know what you're ringing me

740
00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:44,399
about and he'd retired from the Royal

741
00:30:49,070 --> 00:30:46,200
Air Force

742
00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:49,080
um at the end of the 1990s so

743
00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:51,240
um he hadn't done that job for nearly 20

744
00:30:54,409 --> 00:30:52,620
years

745
00:30:56,450 --> 00:30:54,419
and he said I know what you're thinking

746
00:30:59,149 --> 00:30:56,460
me about I've been waiting 30 years for

747
00:31:01,850 --> 00:30:59,159
someone to ring me about this

748
00:31:03,950 --> 00:31:01,860
and you can imagine my reaction to that

749
00:31:06,529 --> 00:31:03,960
and I said it's the photograph isn't it

750
00:31:09,889 --> 00:31:06,539
that you're taught you that

751
00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:09,899
um and yeah and the story emerged that

752
00:31:15,230 --> 00:31:13,679
on um he he was working as as the quite

753
00:31:18,130 --> 00:31:15,240
a senior position

754
00:31:21,950 --> 00:31:18,140
um for in in in the sort of the Scottish

755
00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:21,960
office for the Royal Air Force based a

756
00:31:27,289 --> 00:31:23,940
place called Aria petrivi Castle which

757
00:31:29,389 --> 00:31:27,299
was a wartime um headquarters for the

758
00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:29,399
for the Armed Forces it still existed

759
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:32,100
doesn't it it's it's it's a block of

760
00:31:35,870 --> 00:31:34,080
flats now but

761
00:31:38,750 --> 00:31:35,880
um he was working there

762
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:38,760
at the time in 1990 the phone rang he

763
00:31:42,889 --> 00:31:41,039
said and it was the picture editor from

764
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:42,899
the Scottish Daily Record who said we've

765
00:31:48,649 --> 00:31:45,120
had um we've had a set of photographs

766
00:31:51,470 --> 00:31:48,659
sent To Us by um two lads

767
00:31:53,930 --> 00:31:51,480
um who saw an object in the sky

768
00:31:56,570 --> 00:31:53,940
um near Pittsburgh and we won a um a

769
00:31:58,669 --> 00:31:56,580
comment from the RAF and Craig remembers

770
00:32:00,110 --> 00:31:58,679
this really distinctly he said well I

771
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:00,120
can't give you a comment I need to see

772
00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:03,360
the photograph can you send can you send

773
00:32:06,769 --> 00:32:05,220
the photograph over

774
00:32:09,409 --> 00:32:06,779
um and this this chat from The Daily

775
00:32:12,649 --> 00:32:09,419
Record said yeah I'll I'll there's six

776
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:12,659
photographs I'll I'll run off a print of

777
00:32:16,909 --> 00:32:14,399
what I think is the best one the most

778
00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:16,919
impressive of the six and I'll send it

779
00:32:21,769 --> 00:32:19,140
you over so he

780
00:32:23,810 --> 00:32:21,779
a couple of days later an envelope a

781
00:32:27,289 --> 00:32:23,820
cardboard envelope which Craig has kept

782
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:27,299
which I now have the original envelope

783
00:32:32,029 --> 00:32:30,000
um stamped Daily Record Scotland arrived

784
00:32:33,710 --> 00:32:32,039
at his office he opened the envelope and

785
00:32:37,250 --> 00:32:33,720
the print that you the image that you've

786
00:32:38,450 --> 00:32:37,260
just seen on the screen was inside it

787
00:32:40,430 --> 00:32:38,460
um there you go

788
00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:40,440
um 8x10 image

789
00:32:44,690 --> 00:32:42,120
wow and

790
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:44,700
um looks now the interesting thing is in

791
00:32:47,690 --> 00:32:46,320
the in the description that was given to

792
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:47,700
the ministry of Defense it talks about

793
00:32:53,870 --> 00:32:50,640
six color images but as you can see that

794
00:32:55,850 --> 00:32:53,880
is a black and white image yeah um and

795
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:55,860
what we think because Andrew Robinson

796
00:32:59,389 --> 00:32:58,080
the the the colleague of mine who's the

797
00:33:03,169 --> 00:32:59,399
photographer thinks that what what

798
00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:03,179
happened was it's it's a black and white

799
00:33:08,269 --> 00:33:06,840
um print that's been run off from a uh a

800
00:33:10,130 --> 00:33:08,279
color negative

801
00:33:11,510 --> 00:33:10,140
that's that's what we think has happened

802
00:33:14,029 --> 00:33:11,520
and that's why it's got that sort of

803
00:33:17,149 --> 00:33:14,039
bizarre sepia sort of look to it right

804
00:33:18,590 --> 00:33:17,159
for the newspapers maybe yeah because I

805
00:33:20,930 --> 00:33:18,600
mean I worked on a newspaper at the time

806
00:33:22,970 --> 00:33:20,940
and we they had big sort of machines

807
00:33:25,310 --> 00:33:22,980
that they used to sort of run off images

808
00:33:28,789 --> 00:33:25,320
let's let's say you had your photograph

809
00:33:31,730 --> 00:33:28,799
taken for for inclusion in the in a

810
00:33:33,529 --> 00:33:31,740
newspaper you then wanted a copy of that

811
00:33:36,049 --> 00:33:33,539
image you would go to the newspaper

812
00:33:37,970 --> 00:33:36,059
office and they would run one but they

813
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:37,980
would run a copy of the the image off on

814
00:33:42,529 --> 00:33:40,559
a on a big sort of printing machine and

815
00:33:44,690 --> 00:33:42,539
we think that that's that's what that's

816
00:33:45,710 --> 00:33:44,700
what's happened here

817
00:33:48,049 --> 00:33:45,720
um

818
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:48,059
so what so I mean

819
00:33:52,130 --> 00:33:49,799
rather than going into the details of

820
00:33:54,169 --> 00:33:52,140
the image what happened was

821
00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:54,179
um after he saw that image and he showed

822
00:33:57,889 --> 00:33:56,220
it around the office and got various

823
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:57,899
comments from some of the royal Air

824
00:34:03,710 --> 00:34:01,200
Force colleagues he phoned the number at

825
00:34:05,570 --> 00:34:03,720
the ministry of defense that all these

826
00:34:08,570 --> 00:34:05,580
um people were instructed to call if

827
00:34:11,450 --> 00:34:08,580
they had a UFO report and um spoke to uh

828
00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:11,460
what who we think this person was Owen

829
00:34:16,730 --> 00:34:14,700
hartop who was the UFO desk officer and

830
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:16,740
Craig said we've had this print sent in

831
00:34:21,889 --> 00:34:18,480
I think you'd be interested in it and

832
00:34:23,710 --> 00:34:21,899
and he was told well can you fax it to

833
00:34:26,750 --> 00:34:23,720
us because don't forget this is

834
00:34:28,970 --> 00:34:26,760
pre-internet so so what he did was he

835
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:28,980
made a he made a series of photocopies

836
00:34:34,490 --> 00:34:31,560
of the print that you've seen and he

837
00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:34,500
sent them by facts to the UFO desk in

838
00:34:39,349 --> 00:34:37,560
London and he while it while he was sort

839
00:34:40,909 --> 00:34:39,359
of off doing whatever he was doing the

840
00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:40,919
phone was ringing and he got back to his

841
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:42,480
office and it's the guy it's the UFO

842
00:34:46,609 --> 00:34:44,399
desk officer saying can you get the

843
00:34:49,310 --> 00:34:46,619
negatives you know we want and can you

844
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:49,320
speak to the photographer so Craig

845
00:34:54,290 --> 00:34:52,560
phoned the um the person of the Scottish

846
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:54,300
Daily Record who'd sent this over and

847
00:34:59,150 --> 00:34:56,879
said um can you the Minister of Defense

848
00:35:01,609 --> 00:34:59,160
want to see the negatives can you send

849
00:35:03,530 --> 00:35:01,619
the negatives to London to this address

850
00:35:06,109 --> 00:35:03,540
and this is what I find incredible

851
00:35:07,970 --> 00:35:06,119
because apparently the the guy on The

852
00:35:10,370 --> 00:35:07,980
Daily Record said yep no problem we can

853
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:10,380
send them which to me as a journalist

854
00:35:14,990 --> 00:35:13,020
you would not hand over something like

855
00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:15,000
that to the government

856
00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:17,640
just because somebody wanted to see them

857
00:35:22,190 --> 00:35:20,700
yeah again peculiar

858
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:22,200
um and again it's something that's not

859
00:35:25,250 --> 00:35:23,760
being resolved but that is apparently

860
00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:25,260
what the daily record did I don't know

861
00:35:29,450 --> 00:35:27,540
whether it appears that they did

862
00:35:31,130 --> 00:35:29,460
actually keep a copy negative so they

863
00:35:32,270 --> 00:35:31,140
didn't actually they did keep a copy of

864
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:32,280
these negatives but they sent the

865
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:35,520
originals to the ministry of defense and

866
00:35:40,010 --> 00:35:38,880
um Craig was given a phone number of the

867
00:35:42,770 --> 00:35:40,020
photographer

868
00:35:44,990 --> 00:35:42,780
and he rang he rang the number and it

869
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:45,000
turned out to be a large hotel in the

870
00:35:49,849 --> 00:35:47,760
Scottish Highlands where these where

871
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:49,859
these two got well one of the two guys

872
00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:51,599
who took the photographs were working

873
00:35:56,030 --> 00:35:54,660
and he spoke to the photographer and it

874
00:35:57,410 --> 00:35:56,040
turned out that this guy had an English

875
00:35:59,390 --> 00:35:57,420
accent

876
00:36:01,970 --> 00:35:59,400
and he was he sounded a reasonably

877
00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:01,980
youngish guy and he said that he was

878
00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:04,260
working part-time in the hotel just as

879
00:36:08,990 --> 00:36:06,300
like a summer job and this is something

880
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:09,000
that's quite common in Scotland uh the

881
00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:11,280
these large hotels the employee

882
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:13,260
temporary staff who work in the kitchens

883
00:36:17,089 --> 00:36:15,420
as chefs this kind of thing

884
00:36:18,829 --> 00:36:17,099
and he said

885
00:36:21,050 --> 00:36:18,839
um he was working there just temporarily

886
00:36:23,390 --> 00:36:21,060
during the um during the holidays did

887
00:36:27,650 --> 00:36:23,400
work to full shift this is an August

888
00:36:30,410 --> 00:36:27,660
evening it's in Scotland is is is quite

889
00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:30,420
light until around midnight so you know

890
00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:31,920
you could go out and you could do a work

891
00:36:37,370 --> 00:36:34,800
a walk 9 p.m which is around the time

892
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:37,380
these photographs were taken it's been

893
00:36:43,010 --> 00:36:40,260
driven um North on the A9 Road from from

894
00:36:46,370 --> 00:36:43,020
the hotel it parked it's a quite a rural

895
00:36:49,150 --> 00:36:46,380
spot they'd walked up onto the hills and

896
00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:49,160
he said that they've gone through a um

897
00:36:53,930 --> 00:36:52,380
an area of trees with the fence that you

898
00:36:55,609 --> 00:36:53,940
can see in the photograph they'd gone

899
00:36:58,490 --> 00:36:55,619
over this fence which was like a barbed

900
00:37:00,890 --> 00:36:58,500
wire fence that's used to keep sheep

901
00:37:03,530 --> 00:37:00,900
um in in you know from stop them from

902
00:37:05,690 --> 00:37:03,540
roaming onto the Highlands

903
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:05,700
um as they'd gone over this fence

904
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:08,160
through these trees they'd be become

905
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:10,800
aware of this object that was hovering

906
00:37:14,930 --> 00:37:12,240
in the sky above them they didn't know

907
00:37:15,950 --> 00:37:14,940
how large it was or what it was but it

908
00:37:17,870 --> 00:37:15,960
was something that they couldn't

909
00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:17,880
identify

910
00:37:23,690 --> 00:37:21,060
um and they they were very very scared

911
00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:23,700
they they ran back trips they got back

912
00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:26,280
over the wire fence and hid in the trees

913
00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:28,140
started taking photographs with a camera

914
00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:30,300
that they had with them as they were

915
00:37:34,849 --> 00:37:32,460
taking the photographs they heard a very

916
00:37:37,250 --> 00:37:34,859
distinct sound of a military aircraft

917
00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:37,260
coming down the valley and this aircraft

918
00:37:41,870 --> 00:37:38,880
came down the valley

919
00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:41,880
um North to South past this object that

920
00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:43,560
you can see the Triumph the diamond

921
00:37:46,670 --> 00:37:45,540
shaped object disappeared off into the

922
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:46,680
distance

923
00:37:51,349 --> 00:37:49,200
as they were kept watching this thing

924
00:37:53,150 --> 00:37:51,359
they heard the sound of the jet again so

925
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:53,160
the the Jacks it appeared to have sort

926
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:54,960
of returned

927
00:37:59,930 --> 00:37:57,359
um south to North and then came back and

928
00:38:02,030 --> 00:37:59,940
started banking around the object so if

929
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:02,040
we could see the sequence of photographs

930
00:38:06,410 --> 00:38:04,560
as it was described you'll see there are

931
00:38:08,210 --> 00:38:06,420
other photographs in the sequence where

932
00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:08,220
you see the Harrier jet apparently to

933
00:38:12,589 --> 00:38:10,200
the left of the object and then there's

934
00:38:16,190 --> 00:38:12,599
a second jet visible apparently in one

935
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:16,200
of the one of the other images and while

936
00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:17,760
this is going on they're snapping away

937
00:38:22,970 --> 00:38:19,380
on their camera

938
00:38:25,310 --> 00:38:22,980
but it almost to them they thought that

939
00:38:26,990 --> 00:38:25,320
the pilot had seen whatever it was and

940
00:38:29,870 --> 00:38:27,000
had come back to take a closer look

941
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:29,880
almost as if it was either escorting the

942
00:38:34,370 --> 00:38:33,119
object this hovering object that made no

943
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:34,380
sound

944
00:38:39,410 --> 00:38:36,240
um and so the jet then disappeared off

945
00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:39,420
again and the the they sat for a few

946
00:38:42,109 --> 00:38:40,619
more minutes waiting to see what

947
00:38:44,329 --> 00:38:42,119
happened and then this object then

948
00:38:46,430 --> 00:38:44,339
apparently just went straight up into

949
00:38:48,650 --> 00:38:46,440
the sky completely silent at some

950
00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:48,660
fantastic speed and vanished

951
00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:51,300
wow that that was the story that Craig

952
00:38:56,030 --> 00:38:53,700
was told by this person on the telephone

953
00:38:57,650 --> 00:38:56,040
and he said he was absolutely clear

954
00:38:59,810 --> 00:38:57,660
about what he'd seen he answered the

955
00:39:03,109 --> 00:38:59,820
questions in a sort of it didn't appear

956
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,119
to be you know installing or making this

957
00:39:07,310 --> 00:39:05,280
up he seem completely genuine he said he

958
00:39:10,849 --> 00:39:07,320
took down the information that he'd been

959
00:39:13,310 --> 00:39:10,859
told he typed it up he faxed it to the

960
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:13,320
UFO desk in London as he'd been asked to

961
00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:14,400
do

962
00:39:19,609 --> 00:39:15,960
um and that was the end that was the end

963
00:39:21,589 --> 00:39:19,619
of it and because he he knew that these

964
00:39:22,270 --> 00:39:21,599
um images had been sent to a

965
00:39:25,550 --> 00:39:22,280
um

966
00:39:28,010 --> 00:39:25,560
a newspaper don't forget this is one of

967
00:39:29,690 --> 00:39:28,020
the largest circulation newspapers in

968
00:39:31,730 --> 00:39:29,700
Scotland it was Scotland's national

969
00:39:33,650 --> 00:39:31,740
newspaper the daily record it had a

970
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:33,660
circulation of something in the order of

971
00:39:40,670 --> 00:39:38,880
700 000. daily in 1990. he bought he had

972
00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:40,680
he because he was press office for

973
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:42,180
Scotland he had all the newspapers

974
00:39:46,670 --> 00:39:43,920
delivered to his office every morning so

975
00:39:48,589 --> 00:39:46,680
week after week after week he's waiting

976
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:48,599
to see the story in the newspaper

977
00:39:52,849 --> 00:39:49,680
nothing

978
00:39:54,650 --> 00:39:52,859
yeah and so later that year must

979
00:39:56,690 --> 00:39:54,660
probably be in October or November

980
00:39:59,210 --> 00:39:56,700
because he was press officer quite often

981
00:40:00,770 --> 00:39:59,220
he had to go to London and for a meeting

982
00:40:02,690 --> 00:40:00,780
at the ministry of Defense main building

983
00:40:06,349 --> 00:40:02,700
so he went down for his regular meeting

984
00:40:08,930 --> 00:40:06,359
and whilst he was there he thought well

985
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:08,940
I'll go and visit my um the person I'd

986
00:40:14,750 --> 00:40:13,140
spoken to in the UFO desk Owen hartop

987
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:14,760
um this is the person we think he was

988
00:40:19,609 --> 00:40:17,040
anyway and so he went to the UFO desk

989
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:19,619
office in the main building opened the

990
00:40:26,569 --> 00:40:22,800
door and immediately in front of him on

991
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:26,579
the wall is a huge poster shaped

992
00:40:32,990 --> 00:40:29,760
um poster sized version of the print

993
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:33,000
showing the um showing the the the the

994
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,240
best photograph the one that he had kept

995
00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:39,119
the print off and as you can imagine it

996
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:41,940
was like well what's going on are you

997
00:40:46,670 --> 00:40:43,920
investigating it you know what have you

998
00:40:48,650 --> 00:40:46,680
and he was basically told um yeah he's

999
00:40:50,510 --> 00:40:48,660
been sent to our photography experts

1000
00:40:53,450 --> 00:40:50,520
which is which is which was an agency

1001
00:40:56,030 --> 00:40:53,460
called jarek Joint air reconnaissance

1002
00:40:57,530 --> 00:40:56,040
intelligent Intelligence Center

1003
00:40:59,390 --> 00:40:57,540
um they were the photo analysts that

1004
00:41:01,790 --> 00:40:59,400
were you that that um that were used

1005
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:01,800
extensively during the second world war

1006
00:41:06,589 --> 00:41:04,560
um when they were using um when the RAF

1007
00:41:09,050 --> 00:41:06,599
were taking sort of out doing aerial

1008
00:41:11,150 --> 00:41:09,060
reconnaissance of the V2 weapons plan to

1009
00:41:15,470 --> 00:41:11,160
pinamundi so that you know that they are

1010
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,480
the rafs photo experts and he was told

1011
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:17,280
that they hadn't been able to I'd

1012
00:41:21,170 --> 00:41:19,440
basically all the all we could say was

1013
00:41:22,490 --> 00:41:21,180
that the photographs were genuine they

1014
00:41:24,170 --> 00:41:22,500
were not faked and they couldn't

1015
00:41:26,450 --> 00:41:24,180
identify

1016
00:41:28,730 --> 00:41:26,460
um the the object in the in the images

1017
00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:28,740
and the other bizarre thing was they

1018
00:41:33,410 --> 00:41:30,000
didn't they couldn't

1019
00:41:35,150 --> 00:41:33,420
they hadn't been able to find where the

1020
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:35,160
Harrier had come from they've got no

1021
00:41:41,569 --> 00:41:38,520
record of their big carriers in the air

1022
00:41:44,450 --> 00:41:41,579
at that particular time and place wow

1023
00:41:47,630 --> 00:41:44,460
which is very very peculiar

1024
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:47,640
um and and he was basically told and

1025
00:41:51,950 --> 00:41:49,440
leave it to London

1026
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:51,960
forget about the story don't talk to

1027
00:41:58,609 --> 00:41:55,680
anyone about it you know don't don't ask

1028
00:42:00,230 --> 00:41:58,619
questions just leave it with us and so

1029
00:42:02,270 --> 00:42:00,240
he left

1030
00:42:03,710 --> 00:42:02,280
he made a few more sort of phone calls

1031
00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:03,720
about it but nothing appeared in the

1032
00:42:07,250 --> 00:42:05,640
newspaper and as far as that he was

1033
00:42:11,630 --> 00:42:07,260
concerned that was the end of the story

1034
00:42:13,430 --> 00:42:11,640
but he'd kept the original print that

1035
00:42:15,890 --> 00:42:13,440
had been sent to him by the Daily Record

1036
00:42:19,069 --> 00:42:15,900
and the envelope in which it had arrived

1037
00:42:21,370 --> 00:42:19,079
so when he left the Royal Air Force in

1038
00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:21,380
1999 and he was clearing out his office

1039
00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:23,940
he found the print and he thought what

1040
00:42:27,650 --> 00:42:25,520
shall I do with it shall I throw it away

1041
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:27,660
shall I drop it in the waste paper

1042
00:42:33,890 --> 00:42:29,760
basket and he thought no I'll take it

1043
00:42:35,690 --> 00:42:33,900
with me and so he kept it and he sure

1044
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:35,700
he's he's shown in various people over

1045
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:37,920
the years and said you know um what do

1046
00:42:42,290 --> 00:42:39,359
you think of this and everyone who's

1047
00:42:43,849 --> 00:42:42,300
seen it has been well don't know what is

1048
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:43,859
it

1049
00:42:51,410 --> 00:42:49,200
that this story has had so much

1050
00:42:52,849 --> 00:42:51,420
publicity and Nick Pope has written

1051
00:42:55,310 --> 00:42:52,859
about it in his book and there's been

1052
00:43:00,130 --> 00:42:55,320
all these tabloid stories about it until

1053
00:43:04,010 --> 00:43:00,140
I call him in the summer of um

1054
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:04,020
2021 out of the blue and said hello I'm

1055
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:05,520
David Clark I'm interested in a

1056
00:43:09,710 --> 00:43:07,200
photography that I think you might know

1057
00:43:12,650 --> 00:43:09,720
something about I was the very first

1058
00:43:16,849 --> 00:43:12,660
person to contact him about it in all

1059
00:43:19,370 --> 00:43:16,859
those years amazing amazing now when you

1060
00:43:22,130 --> 00:43:19,380
saw the photo

1061
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,140
um in person did you take like a

1062
00:43:27,230 --> 00:43:24,720
magnifier and go in and and try to

1063
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:27,240
examine it closely to see if you could

1064
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:30,180
see any more detail well originally he

1065
00:43:33,410 --> 00:43:32,400
wasn't very keen on parting with the

1066
00:43:35,329 --> 00:43:33,420
photograph

1067
00:43:36,829 --> 00:43:35,339
um he'd had it all those years and he

1068
00:43:38,750 --> 00:43:36,839
was very worried about

1069
00:43:40,970 --> 00:43:38,760
um whether he was subject to an official

1070
00:43:42,829 --> 00:43:40,980
Secrets act whether by showing it to me

1071
00:43:44,210 --> 00:43:42,839
he would he would be in trouble with his

1072
00:43:46,910 --> 00:43:44,220
former employers

1073
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:46,920
you know if this thing depicted in it

1074
00:43:50,990 --> 00:43:49,200
was some kind of top secret experimental

1075
00:43:53,450 --> 00:43:51,000
aircraft

1076
00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:53,460
he was concerned about whether he could

1077
00:43:58,910 --> 00:43:55,800
be prosecuted under the official Secrets

1078
00:44:00,410 --> 00:43:58,920
act he also was concerned that if he if

1079
00:44:02,150 --> 00:44:00,420
he allowed it to be released and

1080
00:44:05,150 --> 00:44:02,160
published that he would then be

1081
00:44:09,170 --> 00:44:05,160
inundated with you know media people

1082
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:09,180
wanting to interview him about it um UFO

1083
00:44:13,790 --> 00:44:11,520
um ufologists queuing up outside his

1084
00:44:15,470 --> 00:44:13,800
front door as he put it

1085
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:15,480
um this is a guy who's now in his

1086
00:44:21,170 --> 00:44:18,480
midnight in his mid-80s who is retired

1087
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:21,180
he does he's not interested in becoming

1088
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:23,280
a celebrity going on talk shows that

1089
00:44:29,329 --> 00:44:26,880
kind of thing so it took an awful lot of

1090
00:44:31,609 --> 00:44:29,339
work to try and persuade him that this

1091
00:44:34,490 --> 00:44:31,619
was an important image that it deserved

1092
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:34,500
to be um released to the public and what

1093
00:44:39,050 --> 00:44:36,960
we decided to do

1094
00:44:41,569 --> 00:44:39,060
um was um he decided because he knew

1095
00:44:44,030 --> 00:44:41,579
because I'd run an archive of UFO

1096
00:44:46,250 --> 00:44:44,040
material which at the University

1097
00:44:47,930 --> 00:44:46,260
Sheffield Hallam University it's a it's

1098
00:44:49,609 --> 00:44:47,940
a contemporary Legend archive where I've

1099
00:44:52,849 --> 00:44:49,619
got various other

1100
00:44:54,829 --> 00:44:52,859
um iconic UFO images

1101
00:44:56,690 --> 00:44:54,839
um I said why don't you donate it to the

1102
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:56,700
university we will look after it we will

1103
00:45:00,770 --> 00:44:58,800
we will we will make it available to the

1104
00:45:02,690 --> 00:45:00,780
media um I will write a story on it

1105
00:45:05,930 --> 00:45:02,700
because I'm I still work as a freelance

1106
00:45:08,809 --> 00:45:05,940
journalist I can interview you I can act

1107
00:45:10,130 --> 00:45:08,819
as your sort of spokesperson so that you

1108
00:45:12,109 --> 00:45:10,140
don't have to deal with the media

1109
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:12,119
directly and that that's

1110
00:45:15,530 --> 00:45:13,920
that's how I came to write the story

1111
00:45:16,370 --> 00:45:15,540
that was published in the Daily Mail

1112
00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:16,380
online

1113
00:45:21,050 --> 00:45:18,900
yeah and when that came out that kind of

1114
00:45:23,089 --> 00:45:21,060
went crazy I mean I was talking about on

1115
00:45:25,550 --> 00:45:23,099
my show and I tried to reach you right

1116
00:45:29,450 --> 00:45:25,560
away you were very busy all over the

1117
00:45:32,030 --> 00:45:29,460
place inundated with yeah yeah yeah and

1118
00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:32,040
uh I think I had someone reach out also

1119
00:45:35,630 --> 00:45:34,260
to you and they said yeah I know uh I'll

1120
00:45:39,050 --> 00:45:35,640
get back to him or something like that

1121
00:45:43,309 --> 00:45:39,060
but uh so one of the questions that

1122
00:45:46,130 --> 00:45:43,319
comes in to mind is would there be any

1123
00:45:49,730 --> 00:45:46,140
the possibility of an experimental craft

1124
00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:52,370
well it's not it's it's not impossible I

1125
00:45:57,710 --> 00:45:55,440
mean what I haven't said is is that as

1126
00:46:00,349 --> 00:45:57,720
well as well as the um

1127
00:46:02,329 --> 00:46:00,359
as well as Craig I have spoken to a

1128
00:46:03,829 --> 00:46:02,339
number of people who were responsible

1129
00:46:07,069 --> 00:46:03,839
for

1130
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:07,079
um investigating UF UFO or UAP as the as

1131
00:46:11,690 --> 00:46:09,599
they came to call them incidents for the

1132
00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:11,700
defense intelligence section of the

1133
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,140
ministry of defense and these are people

1134
00:46:17,089 --> 00:46:15,599
who will not speak publicly and and and

1135
00:46:22,190 --> 00:46:17,099
as

1136
00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:22,200
and I know when you when you're when

1137
00:46:26,089 --> 00:46:23,940
you're um talking about

1138
00:46:28,849 --> 00:46:26,099
um Anonymous sources like that people

1139
00:46:32,329 --> 00:46:28,859
tend to think they're Anonymous so how

1140
00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:32,339
can we trust them but all I can say is

1141
00:46:37,130 --> 00:46:34,680
um these are people who I've checked out

1142
00:46:38,569 --> 00:46:37,140
they are who they say they are you know

1143
00:46:40,190 --> 00:46:38,579
um

1144
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,200
sometimes you have to fall back on

1145
00:46:44,210 --> 00:46:42,000
Anonymous sources where people won't go

1146
00:46:47,150 --> 00:46:44,220
on the record and

1147
00:46:49,930 --> 00:46:47,160
I have now spoken to two or three

1148
00:46:52,670 --> 00:46:49,940
separate individuals who are

1149
00:46:54,650 --> 00:46:52,680
trustworthy and who doubt shall we say

1150
00:46:56,690 --> 00:46:54,660
without wanting to say too much that

1151
00:46:58,609 --> 00:46:56,700
might identify who these people are but

1152
00:47:00,470 --> 00:46:58,619
they've all sort of confirmed that these

1153
00:47:02,569 --> 00:47:00,480
are genuine photographs and that they do

1154
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:02,579
show an experimental aircraft of some

1155
00:47:09,230 --> 00:47:06,720
kind uh and they say it was a um a U.S

1156
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:09,240
Air Force or a CIA

1157
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:12,720
um experimental craft that for some

1158
00:47:16,430 --> 00:47:15,119
reason was over Scotland at this

1159
00:47:19,609 --> 00:47:16,440
particular time

1160
00:47:21,530 --> 00:47:19,619
whether it was uh some kind of test you

1161
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,540
know to see whether the whether the UK's

1162
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,520
air defenses were able to detect it

1163
00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:25,440
detect this thing don't forget if this

1164
00:47:30,250 --> 00:47:27,300
was an experimental stealth aircraft

1165
00:47:33,290 --> 00:47:30,260
this is just a few months before the

1166
00:47:35,329 --> 00:47:33,300
f-117a that the stealth fighter first

1167
00:47:37,849 --> 00:47:35,339
well it wasn't it wasn't the first time

1168
00:47:41,329 --> 00:47:37,859
it had seen action but it was used in

1169
00:47:44,089 --> 00:47:41,339
the um in the Gulf War uh Bob in Baghdad

1170
00:47:45,470 --> 00:47:44,099
Baghdad the B-2 bomber was in was in

1171
00:47:47,630 --> 00:47:45,480
production at the time as well there

1172
00:47:50,329 --> 00:47:47,640
were a number of experimental prototypes

1173
00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:50,339
uh that were probably unmanned um

1174
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:52,140
aircraft as well that were being tested

1175
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,240
you know it could have been anything of

1176
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:56,640
that kind it could even be an RAF

1177
00:48:01,790 --> 00:47:59,760
uh our UK experimental aircraft that we

1178
00:48:05,210 --> 00:48:01,800
were working with the um the U.S

1179
00:48:05,930 --> 00:48:05,220
authorities to to to fly it who knows

1180
00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:05,940
um

1181
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:08,220
but this this this is what I was told

1182
00:48:11,930 --> 00:48:10,140
and that the photograph was classified

1183
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:11,940
as Secret

1184
00:48:14,690 --> 00:48:13,200
um as soon as it came into the

1185
00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:14,700
possession of the of the ministry of

1186
00:48:19,550 --> 00:48:17,700
defense and that would explain why the

1187
00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:19,560
newspaper never published the photograph

1188
00:48:24,710 --> 00:48:22,260
it would explain why the photographers

1189
00:48:26,809 --> 00:48:24,720
have vanished uh because we were told

1190
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,819
that they were that they were spoken to

1191
00:48:31,130 --> 00:48:29,040
and they they were told you know not to

1192
00:48:34,069 --> 00:48:31,140
talk to the media any further about the

1193
00:48:37,130 --> 00:48:34,079
whatever it was they'd photographed

1194
00:48:38,750 --> 00:48:37,140
um the Skeptics who say that being a

1195
00:48:40,430 --> 00:48:38,760
skeptic myself I've got to say the thing

1196
00:48:43,250 --> 00:48:40,440
that's most surprised me about this is

1197
00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:43,260
how close-minded some of the Skeptics

1198
00:48:47,210 --> 00:48:45,180
um have been about this I mean the

1199
00:48:50,450 --> 00:48:47,220
reaction I've had

1200
00:48:52,370 --> 00:48:50,460
um has been why are you pushing this

1201
00:48:54,410 --> 00:48:52,380
theory that this is some kind of

1202
00:48:56,690 --> 00:48:54,420
experimental aircraft it can't possibly

1203
00:48:58,910 --> 00:48:56,700
be because no such thing exists that

1204
00:49:02,710 --> 00:48:58,920
would behave like that that would sort

1205
00:49:05,569 --> 00:49:02,720
of that would move in that way

1206
00:49:07,970 --> 00:49:05,579
my next question was would an

1207
00:49:09,890 --> 00:49:07,980
experimental aircraft shoot straight up

1208
00:49:11,870 --> 00:49:09,900
I mean if the photographers were telling

1209
00:49:13,609 --> 00:49:11,880
the truth well there's a simple answer

1210
00:49:14,990 --> 00:49:13,619
to that is that we haven't spoken to the

1211
00:49:17,870 --> 00:49:15,000
photographers have we

1212
00:49:20,690 --> 00:49:17,880
they don't know who they are second hand

1213
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:20,700
yeah so first stand is always best and

1214
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:22,260
that's that's yeah you know a

1215
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:25,680
journalistic mantra so all we know is

1216
00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:28,319
that um this that Craig Lindsay who

1217
00:49:33,650 --> 00:49:30,240
interviewed one of the photographers on

1218
00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:33,660
a telephone 32 years ago is remembering

1219
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:35,640
a conversation that you had with this

1220
00:49:40,730 --> 00:49:38,400
guy and this guy says that he remembers

1221
00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:40,740
this thing going up into the sky at some

1222
00:49:47,150 --> 00:49:43,200
incredible speed completely silent now

1223
00:49:49,309 --> 00:49:47,160
remember if just before that the object

1224
00:49:50,930 --> 00:49:49,319
had been circled by a Harrier jump jet

1225
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:50,940
now if you've been close to a Harrier

1226
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:53,160
jump jet you would know that it makes it

1227
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:57,060
incredibly loud noise so therefore

1228
00:50:01,490 --> 00:49:59,280
how can we be absolutely sure that this

1229
00:50:04,190 --> 00:50:01,500
object was completely silent yeah that's

1230
00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:04,200
a very good point yeah maybe it was

1231
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:06,180
whatever noise it was making had been

1232
00:50:10,309 --> 00:50:08,160
drowned out by the sound of the Harrier

1233
00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:10,319
Jets that were circling around it at the

1234
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:12,240
time but because we're not talking to

1235
00:50:15,890 --> 00:50:14,040
the actual photographer we don't have

1236
00:50:18,589 --> 00:50:15,900
the photographer's first-hand account we

1237
00:50:20,510 --> 00:50:18,599
only have a 32 year old account of

1238
00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:20,520
someone who spoke to the photographer at

1239
00:50:26,809 --> 00:50:22,740
the time I don't think we can take it as

1240
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:26,819
read that we know we that that's exactly

1241
00:50:32,690 --> 00:50:29,760
what happened or that there was no sound

1242
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:32,700
right and would there be any

1243
00:50:38,930 --> 00:50:36,660
circumstance like if this was a UAP that

1244
00:50:42,170 --> 00:50:38,940
was unidentified and not a secret

1245
00:50:44,329 --> 00:50:42,180
military craft would there also be a

1246
00:50:46,609 --> 00:50:44,339
circumstance where they were told not to

1247
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:46,619
talk about it and it would be pulled

1248
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:49,440
from the paper or would that do you

1249
00:50:54,530 --> 00:50:51,839
think that would just go in the paper

1250
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:54,540
well I can't think of any other reason

1251
00:50:58,010 --> 00:50:55,920
why

1252
00:50:59,510 --> 00:50:58,020
um a newspaper wouldn't publish a story

1253
00:51:02,750 --> 00:50:59,520
like this and I can't think of any

1254
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:02,760
reason why uh um two um

1255
00:51:08,329 --> 00:51:05,760
Witnesses who'd seen something like this

1256
00:51:10,970 --> 00:51:08,339
taken the photographs and then taking

1257
00:51:13,390 --> 00:51:10,980
those photographs at four publication in

1258
00:51:16,370 --> 00:51:13,400
the newspaper that was their intention

1259
00:51:19,370 --> 00:51:16,380
why they wouldn't they would just simply

1260
00:51:20,930 --> 00:51:19,380
vanish after after doing that and why

1261
00:51:22,910 --> 00:51:20,940
the newspaper then wouldn't run the

1262
00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:22,920
story other than the whether other than

1263
00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:24,720
the only explanation that makes any

1264
00:51:30,589 --> 00:51:27,720
sense is that something went on that was

1265
00:51:32,270 --> 00:51:30,599
some kind of military exercise that

1266
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:32,280
um I'm not saying that they were ordered

1267
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,319
not to publish it it's it's far more

1268
00:51:38,809 --> 00:51:36,960
subtle than that it's the system works

1269
00:51:41,569 --> 00:51:38,819
and just we'd rather you didn't publish

1270
00:51:43,609 --> 00:51:41,579
it because it it's a sensitive matter

1271
00:51:45,710 --> 00:51:43,619
that's why that's the conversation that

1272
00:51:47,930 --> 00:51:45,720
I think will have taken place

1273
00:51:50,510 --> 00:51:47,940
yeah you know it's it's uh we're just

1274
00:51:52,190 --> 00:51:50,520
about out of time here but it's it's in

1275
00:51:54,170 --> 00:51:52,200
a way you know there are some

1276
00:51:56,809 --> 00:51:54,180
similarities to the cash Landrum case

1277
00:51:59,329 --> 00:51:56,819
only you know because this is a diamond

1278
00:52:02,510 --> 00:51:59,339
shaped uh in that case there were

1279
00:52:04,609 --> 00:52:02,520
helicopters yeah uh you know uh uh

1280
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:04,619
trailing it and that you know very much

1281
00:52:06,410 --> 00:52:05,760
I remember

1282
00:52:08,450 --> 00:52:06,420
um

1283
00:52:11,210 --> 00:52:08,460
I'm trying to think who it is that does

1284
00:52:14,450 --> 00:52:11,220
all the research on the aircraft uh I'm

1285
00:52:16,809 --> 00:52:14,460
drawing a blank right now but uh he's

1286
00:52:19,849 --> 00:52:16,819
convinced it was an experimental sure

1287
00:52:23,569 --> 00:52:19,859
aircraft and there was radiation it

1288
00:52:25,010 --> 00:52:23,579
burns and Mark involved in that uh and I

1289
00:52:27,650 --> 00:52:25,020
can't remember exactly what year that

1290
00:52:30,609 --> 00:52:27,660
was yeah that was the same around the

1291
00:52:35,150 --> 00:52:33,530
but the the interesting thing the thing

1292
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:35,160
what I found interesting about this

1293
00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:38,640
Kelvin story is unlike a lot of the

1294
00:52:44,210 --> 00:52:41,940
other UFO Legends like rendelton it's

1295
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:44,220
quite simple with this story either

1296
00:52:50,210 --> 00:52:46,800
either the objects either the photograph

1297
00:52:51,470 --> 00:52:50,220
and the story is is false it's a fake

1298
00:52:54,890 --> 00:52:51,480
photograph

1299
00:52:57,290 --> 00:52:54,900
or it's um some kind of military

1300
00:52:58,849 --> 00:52:57,300
aircraft of some kind I mean I wouldn't

1301
00:53:01,130 --> 00:52:58,859
rule out the possibility it could be a

1302
00:53:04,130 --> 00:53:01,140
blimp a kite or some other unusual

1303
00:53:07,130 --> 00:53:04,140
object in the sky but those are to me

1304
00:53:09,770 --> 00:53:07,140
there are only two possibilities you

1305
00:53:11,690 --> 00:53:09,780
know and and so far no one has been able

1306
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:11,700
to conclusively demonstrate that the

1307
00:53:15,049 --> 00:53:13,200
photograph is a fake there's been many

1308
00:53:18,049 --> 00:53:15,059
people trying to suggest it's something

1309
00:53:21,290 --> 00:53:18,059
really bizarre like a reflection in a

1310
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:21,300
pond with the objects like a a stone

1311
00:53:25,010 --> 00:53:22,800
sticking out of a pond but I think

1312
00:53:26,589 --> 00:53:25,020
that's in the eye of the beholder I

1313
00:53:30,410 --> 00:53:26,599
think was that Nick West

1314
00:53:33,049 --> 00:53:30,420
I'm just kidding I think Midwest is

1315
00:53:35,569 --> 00:53:33,059
certainly um has carried at that theory

1316
00:53:37,309 --> 00:53:35,579
on his um on his website but I don't

1317
00:53:39,650 --> 00:53:37,319
think he really believes that I think

1318
00:53:41,870 --> 00:53:39,660
this the simplest explanation if it is a

1319
00:53:44,270 --> 00:53:41,880
fake is that it's a small object that's

1320
00:53:48,109 --> 00:53:44,280
suspended from the tree line that's

1321
00:53:50,329 --> 00:53:48,119
dangling on a thread yeah but I I think

1322
00:53:52,490 --> 00:53:50,339
if it's a fake it's it's it's it's it

1323
00:53:54,650 --> 00:53:52,500
but but the thing is how then would you

1324
00:53:56,990 --> 00:53:54,660
explain the Harrier now it's easy to

1325
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:57,000
carry off a fig like that if you've got

1326
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:59,040
one image but don't forget originally

1327
00:54:02,809 --> 00:54:01,200
there was six images with the aircraft

1328
00:54:06,770 --> 00:54:02,819
yeah different positions around the

1329
00:54:08,990 --> 00:54:06,780
object so Somewhere Out There exists

1330
00:54:12,829 --> 00:54:09,000
these five other images and yeah and and

1331
00:54:14,569 --> 00:54:12,839
also the photographers um these two

1332
00:54:17,030 --> 00:54:14,579
young guys who we believe were chefs

1333
00:54:19,370 --> 00:54:17,040
working in this hotel now what I will

1334
00:54:22,250 --> 00:54:19,380
say is that on the back of the print

1335
00:54:24,890 --> 00:54:22,260
that I have in the archive is the name

1336
00:54:27,530 --> 00:54:24,900
of one of the photographers which I've

1337
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:27,540
gone I I've decided not to publish

1338
00:54:31,069 --> 00:54:29,520
because I've been trying to track this

1339
00:54:31,730 --> 00:54:31,079
person down

1340
00:54:33,710 --> 00:54:31,740
um

1341
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:33,720
and I thought it was it was that was the

1342
00:54:37,609 --> 00:54:35,520
best way to do it because I think if if

1343
00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:37,619
we'd revealed the name then we're going

1344
00:54:40,670 --> 00:54:39,119
to get an awful lot of people

1345
00:54:43,370 --> 00:54:40,680
um claiming that they know who this

1346
00:54:45,049 --> 00:54:43,380
person is whereas I'm waiting for that

1347
00:54:46,670 --> 00:54:45,059
person to contact me and say that's my

1348
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:46,680
photograph and then because only I

1349
00:54:51,829 --> 00:54:48,960
because because we know the name we can

1350
00:54:54,049 --> 00:54:51,839
pretty much eliminate anyone who's you

1351
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,059
know wanting to sort of pretend to be

1352
00:54:59,630 --> 00:54:56,400
the photographer I see and playing the

1353
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,640
copyright on on this image so yeah

1354
00:55:03,349 --> 00:55:01,440
um we've made extensive inquiries to

1355
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:03,359
track this person down and no we haven't

1356
00:55:07,910 --> 00:55:06,000
been able to find this person so far I

1357
00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:07,920
mean there are from the work that we've

1358
00:55:11,569 --> 00:55:09,119
done there's some somewhere in the

1359
00:55:14,450 --> 00:55:11,579
region of 160 people alive in the United

1360
00:55:15,589 --> 00:55:14,460
Kingdom who share his name and we've

1361
00:55:16,190 --> 00:55:15,599
contacted

1362
00:55:17,990 --> 00:55:16,200
um

1363
00:55:19,309 --> 00:55:18,000
pretty much all of those and still not

1364
00:55:21,770 --> 00:55:19,319
being able to find him so there's the

1365
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:21,780
possibility that the name itself is

1366
00:55:26,349 --> 00:55:23,760
false and it's a pseudonym that that

1367
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:26,359
person was using which is

1368
00:55:31,010 --> 00:55:29,760
always passed away yeah yeah but you

1369
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:31,020
would have thought Martin wouldn't you

1370
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:33,839
that someone who knew that person who

1371
00:55:37,130 --> 00:55:35,760
steamed the photographs he's been in all

1372
00:55:40,370 --> 00:55:37,140
the newspapers would have come forward

1373
00:55:43,010 --> 00:55:40,380
so it's a really baffling mystery really

1374
00:55:46,069 --> 00:55:43,020
well thank you so much that's it for our

1375
00:55:47,809 --> 00:55:46,079
time today and uh I really appreciate

1376
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:47,819
it's been a lot of fun always glad to

1377
00:55:57,950 --> 00:55:50,400
have you back again thanks for watching

1378
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:00,410
all right so that's it for tonight thank

1379
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:04,079
you uh next week we have uh David Marla

1380
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:06,720
coming up and uh the blog this week I

1381
00:56:10,910 --> 00:56:08,160
forgot to say about Charles lear's

1382
00:56:13,309 --> 00:56:10,920
behind the scenes of UFO cover-up live

1383
00:56:16,010 --> 00:56:13,319
number five Charles is going to be on

1384
00:56:19,010 --> 00:56:16,020
December 13th talking about that series

1385
00:56:20,809 --> 00:56:19,020
of a lot of depth of uh work he did on

1386
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:20,819
that so thank you everyone and remember

1387
00:56:31,069 --> 00:56:22,510
to keep your eyes to the sky